Google Earth highlights the Nakba

Here are a couple of reports that describe, from different perspectives, an interesting phenomenon on Google Earth.  First, from the Jerusalem Post:

Anti-Israel activity on the Google Earth application has been stepped up this week, with the message “Nakba – The Palestinian Catastrophe” now appearing when users scroll over the orange dots that speckle locations across the entire map of Israel.

The Jerusalem Post, which explains the technology of how it works, condemns it as propaganda.

Then, from Palestine Remembered, the organization that has done this:

Our presentation includes the following:

  • All cities & villages that were destroyed and ethnically cleansed by the Israelis.
  • All cities & villages in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
  • All refugee camps including the camps in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.
  • All existing Palestinian towns (including the unrecognized villages) within Palestine-1948 (or the so called “green line”).
  • All exclusive Jewish colonies (Israeli towns) including the colonies in the West Bank.
  • All major highways, railways, roads and junctions.
  • Several well known concentrations camps.
  • Most, if nor all, of the Israeli military installation inclusive of the Israeli nuclear sites.

–L.L. Wynn

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100 Responses to Google Earth highlights the Nakba

  1. Raffe says:

    Are there maps that show the villages of the 850,000 Jews that were forcibly removed from Arab lands in the wake of the creation of Israel?

  2. llwynn says:

    I have no idea. If you’re feeling ambitious I’m sure you could go and program Google maps to show that.

  3. Noor Hammad says:

    Raffe, those 850,000 Jews (going to take your word on the numbers) had a new home in Palestine to go to, the Palestinians on the other hand, did not.

    I’m not advocating the removal of anyone from their homes however to draw a moral equivalence between the two events is simply ridiculous.

    Noor Hammad

  4. Raffe says:

    Noor, how sure were the Arab governments that Israel would take in those Jews?

    Furthermore, why couldn’t the Arab states have looked after their homeless neighbors rather than leave them to face exile in limbo?

  5. Noor Hammad says:

    Israel has given all Jews the world over a “right of return”. Ill reiterate what I said before, I am not advocating the expulsion of anyone from their homes but at least the expelled Jews had a ‘national homeland’ to go to (and many did).

    As for Arab states taking in Palestinian refugees, the Arab states knew that as soon as they accepted Palestinian refugees the world would consider the ‘problem’ solved and there would be no impetus for the international community to rectify the crime that was committed against the Palestinian people. In addition to that, many Palestinians did not want to live in a foreign country be it another Arab state or otherwise.

    What it comes down to is that the original crime was the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine which by its very nature could only be achieved through the killing, intimidation and expulsion of a people from the lands on which they had lived from time immemorial.

    Palestinians are the ones who have been living under brutal occupation for 60 years. Palestinians are the ones who have been living in squalid conditions in refugee camps in neighbouring states for 60 years.

    Noor Hammad

  6. Raffe says:

    You could say that there was no Arab Palestine prior to the creation of the State of Israel….it was a shared land between Jews and Palestinians, mandated to the British; there was no ‘problem’ until the Arab nations attacked those parts which had been ceded to the Jews. Then there was a problem. As to the ‘crime’ against the Palestinian people, they were in the main ordered to leave their lands by Arab commanders to clear the way so that the “Jews could be driven into the sea’. When the Jews won, the Arabs who had left to allow the genocide weren’t able to return to their homelands. Just listen to recordings on Jordanian and Egyptian radio broadcasts, and you’ll hear these warnings and instructions to the residents of the new partitioned land.
    After the 1948 attack by Arab governments on the Jewish parts of Israel in the UN partition plan, the West Bank became Jordanian land and the Gaza became Egyptian. The question is why these refugees weren’t accepted into the citizenship of those nations, and especially why their descendants (except for Jordanians) haven’t been given citizenship by right of birth in that nation?
    Is it only Israel that must hold to a higher level of social morality?

  7. Noor Hammad says:

    Raffe,

    Palestine was shared by Jews and Palestinians but Palestinians were the majority.

    The Palestinians never accepted the British “mandate”, itself a colonialist enterprise enforced upon the people any more than the Jews did. In fact if you look into it you will find that Jewish resistance to British occupation was quite severe and included the first recorded “terrorist” attacks in the holy land, on British targets, many lead by future Israeli Prime minister and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate (as ridiculous as Arafat’s honour) Menachem Begin.

    The claim that Arab ‘radio’ stations ordered the Arabs to leave Palestine is false. This is a story created and repeated by Zionists to validate their seizure of Palestinian land, it has been disproved on a vast number of occasions. There were no ‘orders’ given for Palestinians to leave their lands, the only broadcasts that advised some towns to flee were in the wake of the massacres such as the one at Deir Yassin, and if you’re suggesting that by fleeing in the wake of massacres in neighbouring towns, that Palestinians forfeited their rights to their land, you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

    As I noted before, Palestine’s Arab neighbours refused to grant citizenship to Palestinian refugees because doing so would quite simply remove any impetus to resolve the refugee problem and grant the Palestinian refugees their right under international law to return to their homes. Furthermore, handing the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt is no more valid than handing Jerusalem to Israel.

    Israel is not held to a ‘higher level of social morality’ as you put it, than any other nation, however they are a nation that has for 60 years refused to satisfy even their most basic obligations towards the people they displaced and continue to occupy and oppress.

    Noor Hammad

  8. mustafa ramadan says:

    To all Jews who have reason,
    1-Since the Jews were oppressed by Europe for centuries, not by Arabs, and gassed and burned by Hitler, why should only the Palestinians pay the price, not Germany in particular ?
    2-The occupation of Palestine is the only occupation in the 21st century and the super powers and the false heralds and advocates of humanity and democracy are doing nothing. Why ? Just because the victims are Arabs and Muslims ?
    3-The Jews could have been safer if they had remained in their original countries and homes. How many thousands of Jews have been killed in Palestine, Sinai, Golan Heights, and Lebanon ? How many more will be killed ? Zionists seem to be very bad at math and calculation.
    4-Zionist leaders have also proved to be narrow-minded. They haven’t read history. All invaders of Palestine perished or vanished. Are the Israelis an exception ? The Zionists have deceived and cheated their own people. Willy-nilly, Palestine will return to Palestinians. It’s a question of time. Why don’t the Israelis leave Palestine and live peacefully on the lands they left ??? It’s quite simple. Why don’t they spare their own blood ? Are they self-destructive as one thinker described them ?

  9. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    1- The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husseini was openly allied with Adolf Hitler and had hoped to bring a number of Nazi death camps to the Middle East in order to exterminate the Jews who were, and had always, living there.
    “Germany’s objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power”
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni#cite_note-109)

    2- What about the occupations of Tibet, Chechnya, Somalia, Azerbajian? There are many occupations world-wide which the West is ignoring, many of them worse than what the Palestinians are currently experiencing.

    3-Zionism was formed when Jews in their original countries were targeted by anti-Semites. Pogroms all throughout Eastern Europe from the 1800s culminating in the mass slaughter of the Holocaust led Jews to believe that a homeland would be a safe-haven and it has been.

    4-Jews were there first.

  10. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,
    Here are some additional answers to my previous comment:

    1. You say that the Jews were not oppressed by the Arabs. Have you not heard of a special tax on non-Muslims called Dhimmitude which Jews living in Arab lands had to pay, simply because they were Jews. Have you not heard of the pogroms in Arab lands in the 18th Century by militant Muslims? And Germans have been paying reparations for the attempted genocide of the Jews since the second world war. Further, Jews have always lived in Palestine, ever since the Roman occupation. The great migrations in the late 19th and early 20th centuries from pogroms in Eastern Europe were to a Palestine largely devoid of people. The great Arab migrations into Palestine were from Circassia., Syria and other parts of the decaying Ottoman Empire in order to work on Jewish farms and to enjoy a better life. Yes, there were Arabs in ‘Palestine’, but it was largely a malarial swamp which the Jewish farmers turned into arable land. Indeed, Mustafa, until 1967, Palestinians referred to themselves as Syrians. Or didn’t you know that? It was only when Israel beat all those Arab armies in the ’67 War that Palestinians suddenly realized that they were Palestinians…..interesting.
    2. As I’ve said, Mustafa, you are completely wrong about the occupation of Palestine being the only occupation of the 21st century. I’ve already told you about the other peoples and other nations. But why is UNWRA the only UN Agency dedicated to the relief of Palestinian refugees? And why do 21,000 Palestinians work for it, making it one of the largest employers in the area, with only 300 non-Palestinians working there? Doesn’t that tell you something about the reason that the Arab Palestinians want to maintain their refugee status? Without it, they’d have to fend for themselves, instead of being the recipients of aid, the best health-care in the region outside of what the Israeli Arabs enjoy through the Kupat Cholim, food and shelter relief, sanitation and roads, and so much more from the ($350 million the UN pumps into UNWRA, most of it contributed by the US and Europe, very little, by the way, coming from Arab neighbours.
    3. Why you say the Jews would have been safer in Europe is beyond my understanding. Since the time of the Crusades, Jews have been the subject of pogroms, attempted genocides, torture, mass murder and looting. Every year at Passover time, we pray ‘To Next Year in Jerusalem’, as we have been doing for 1500 years. Yet Jerusalem isn’t mentioned once in the Koran. Jerusalem only became a political entity in the eyes of Muslims when it was occupied by non-Muslims. Outside of these times, it was never mentioned in the annals, and further, wasn’t the subject of prayers.

  11. llwynn says:

    Look, usually I don’t have time to intervene in these comment debates, but I’ve had enough of these absurdities. It’s preposterous to say that Jews came to a “Palestine largely devoid of people.” That Zionist mantra has been amply refuted by historians. Indeed, see this article published in the Atlantic in 1920 by Anstruther Mackay:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/bookauth/zionism/mackay.htm

    Mackay provides these figures:
    “But the Syrian province of Palestine, about one hundred and fifty miles long and fifty miles broad, largely mountainous and sterile, contains at present a population of more than 650,000, divided as follows: Mohammedan Arabs, 515,000; Jews, 63,000; Christian Arabs, 62,000; nomadic Bedouins, 50,000; unclassified, 5000.”

    Or see this source which provides figures for 1880 and 1914:

    “By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000. ”

    “By 1914, the total population of Palestine stood at about 700,000. About 615,000 were Arabs, and 85,000 to 100,000 were Jews.”

    And see this neutral attempt to mediate claims about population in mandate-era Palestine and prior: http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

    I don’t know what your definition of “largely devoid” is, but for an arid landscape, between 400,000 and 700,000 inhabitants (I include Muslims, Jews, and Christians in those figures) isn’t exactly empty.

    Meanwhile, the “malarial swamp” line comes almost word for word from an offensive website, “Jewish Task Force,” whose mission is “Fighting to save America and Israel
    from Islamic terrorism!” and which claims on its homepage, “One of the biggest and most successful Arab Nazi propaganda lies is the false claim that there is a land called ‘Palestine’ and a people called ‘Palestinians.'”

    There are much more thoughtful scholarly ways to reflect on malaria eradication programs in mandate-era Palestine. See, for example, this article abstract indexed on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16482715

    “Placing scientific knowledge onto a visual grid through malaria maps became a way of re-envisioning the landscape of Palestine during the period of British rule. Malaria maps were not only used by scientists to effect practical results in swamp drainage and in other efforts to decrease malaria morbidity, but they were also co-opted by political organizations and the Palestine Government as tools in a general debate over the development of Palestine. Furthermore, Zionist scientists and settlement officials used malaria surveys and maps to help determine future sites for Jewish settlement and to legitimate previous settlement operations. The anti-malaria programs that resulted from gathering this scientific knowledge had concrete ramifications for the topographical, ecological and demographic transformation of Palestine.”

    Raffe, you’re a student here and I expect better scholarship from Macquarie students.

    Lisa

  12. Raffe says:

    Demographers I’ve read say that the area known as Palestine was sparsely populated and neglected by its Ottoman absentee landlords. I would refer you to Mark Twain’s account, written in 1867, for an eye-witness description (yes, I know he’s a fiction writer, but his travel accounts paint a real and vivid picture). He wrote of the Palestine through which he travelled… ‘a desolation that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action….we never saw a human being on the whole route….there was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere….even the olive and cactus had almost deserted the country.”

    The American consul in Jerusalem in 1880 said that the area was in continuing decline.

    The Palestine Royal Commission of 1913 said “Houses were all of mud; no windows; sanitary conditions horrible; schools didn’t exist; the western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert”

    The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

    Why the growth? Immigration by Arabs from neighbouring states constituted nearly 40 percent of the increase; they immigrated to take advantage of the Jewish development of the land and the higher standard of living that the Jews brought to Palestine. Jews were importing gum trees to drain the malarial swamps and make them into arable land. As a result, Arab infant mortality fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945. Life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

    Cite:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Arabs_in_Palestine.html

    Mark Twain – The Innocents Abroad or The New Pilgrim’s Progress 1867 (www.shechem.org)

    Alan Dershowitz The Case for Israel published by Wiley 2003

    Myths and Facts A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict by Mitchell G. Bard published by American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise 2006

  13. Rosalyn says:

    Raffe you should marry Alan Dershowitz.
    Seriously what kind of crap do we have to put up with in this blog-world? I think Raffe thinks he’s saving the zionist discourse at MQ single handedly. If one was to point out the plagerism in Dershowitz’s work, which ahs been well documented by Finkelstein, Raffe will just come back with some drivel that discredits someone elses work. What scares me the most is that Raffe can’t see how bigoted he is, how inherently racist Zionism is and how ill-informed his sources are. He is a battle that people with more scholarly integrity on this blog will never win.

  14. llwynn says:

    Rosalyn, I must urge you to bring some academic references to bear on your urging that Raffe marry Alan Dershowitz.

  15. Raffe says:

    Thank you for your comments and your marital advice.

    I would, however, appreciate a response to my arguments as opposed to ad hominem attacks. This is a political and intellectual board and I think that comments that are emotionally based rob from it legitimate discussion and perhaps even, in the extreme cases, deter its educational value.

    If you have major issues that you’d like to discuss with me then you may contact me through my blog.

    I look forward to having a scholarly debate with you in the future.

  16. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe’s way of argument is typically Zionist. It’s based on wishful thinking, selectivity, fallacies and falsification. It focuses on irrelevant details of details in order to distract, confuse and mislead the reader or listener.

    Today, I’ll start from the very beginning. I’ll continue and complete later.

    1-Palestine has never been void. Excavations in Jericho and other places, in addition to history books prove that it has always been populated since and even before the times of Noah and Abraham, and before and after the Pharaoh, Greek, Roman and Islamic rule of the area. As for Mark Twain’s account of Palestine, it described only the roads that he had taken or the places that he had passed by about two hundred years ago, not during the 1940’s. Raffe is selective here.
    Besides, geographers say that more than 60% of Asia is mountains. Yet Palestine is known for the large numbers of villages that are adjacent to one another- in many cases a few hundred meters separate one village from another. So, because Palestine was void or sparsely populated, the Zionists destroyed about 500 Palestinian villages !!!. (see Palestine Remembered & plands.com) sites.

    2-According to your book, the Bible, the Israelites’/ Jews’ grandfather Abraham came originally from Iraq to Palestine because it was populated by Palestine natives, not empty. He was a stranger and an alien. Palestine was not given by God to Abraham, simply because your Bible again says that Abraham bought the cave where he was buried by a native Palestinian. His grandson Jacob, the father of the Israelites was also a foreigner in Palestine, and so were his children in Palestine and later in Egypt. They were not natives of either country.

    3-After Exodus, flight from Egypt, the Israelites under Moses’ leadership refused to enter Palestine with him because they were afraid of the Palestinian (also, Palestine was not empty), and they let him down and they were all lost in Sinai for 40 years.

    4-After 40 years, the Bible tells us that they entered Palestine with the help of the prostitute Rahab and killed every Palestinian they faced and burnt every property and killed all animals including donkeys !!!!!. This is a part of your history, Raffe, which you are proud of, I think. I’ll complete later.

    Mustafa

  17. mustafa ramadan says:

    Correction:
    Paragraph 2, line 5 above
    (from a native Palestinian)

    Paragraph 3, line 3 above
    (Palestinians)

    Regards

    Mustafa

  18. MS says:

    I have not read most of the above points. From a preliminary scan it entirely misses the point on how atrocious and absurd it is for the Palestinian Remembered organisation to do what it has.

    The unbelievably idiotic nature of it, which puts this message board to shame to try and deal with it on an intellectual level, can be summed up in its assertion that it marks several “well known concentration camps”. That statement discredits anything it has to say, and discredits an otherwise perhaps legitimate awareness campaign for displaced persons in time of war.

    I understand that this is a university blog? Shame on you.

  19. llwynn says:

    Let it never be said that we don’t post comments that are critical of this blog and the bloggers.

    But MS, are you actually saying shame on us for posting, without critical comment one way or another, two links, one of which was to a news items from the Jerusalem Post which was actually very critical of the Google Earth phenomenon? My dear, shame on YOU for not even reading before you decided to anonymously criticize what you haven’t read.

    Maybe we should just close the comments on this particular post, since it doesn’t really seem like they’re going anywhere interesting, as they’ve just descended into personal attacks. (Raffe, cheers for trying to rise above that.) It’s a sorry reminder to me that there are some topics that are so contested that it’s practically impossible to have any sort of thoughtful, scholarly debate about them. Everyone has their own pat set of answers but nobody says anything new and interesting. What a pity. This is the most frustrating aspect of being an academic who works on the Middle East.

  20. mustafa ramadan says:

    18-7-08

    To all bloggers,
    Please be specific and try to refute what you don’t agree to. Generalizations are very easy to make.

    Mustafa

  21. mustafa ramadan says:

    To MS

    Would you explain to us how and why Palestine Remembered organization was absurd and atrocious.

    I couldn’t understand your second paragraph. Could you paraphrase and elucidate.

    Thanks in advance

    Mustafa

  22. Paul McPhpharlin says:

    RE: MUSTAFA
    I do believe the the Old Testament nations destroyed by the Isralites or Hebrews were in fact Cannanite nations who lived in Canaan. They included Jebusites, Amorites, Edomites, Midianites, Kenites….all nations which historically no longer exist. NOT PALESTINIANS, which are a modern arab identity. The land was named Palestine by the Romans to wipe out Judean historical connections to the land. It was named after inhabitants of the coastal Gazan Area of Canaan- The Philistines themselves were non-natives to the Land of Canaan, modern archaeology has shown that they were Sea Peoples originating from Southern Greece, and who arrived in Coastal Canaan around 1200 BC (approximately around the same period as the Hebrew/Israelite tribes).

    So who are the Palestinians?? they are not the ancient cannanite tribes, ( they probs have a bit of Philistine and Hebrew ancestry) …historically they are also “non-indigenous” arab immigrants to the land, many arrived in the past few centuries….the truth is they were ALL immigrants to the Land of Canaan/Israel/Palestine at some point in time, hence more of a reason that they have to learn to get along and live together in order for there to be Peace, and an end to the bloodshed. Arguing who has the biggest and best claim solves nothing cause we all know the Jewish Community of Israel and the Palestinian Community of West Bank and Gaza are going Nowhere!!! They are both proud people who will fight to their last breath for the right to exist on the land. And that is the last thing we want to see!!… A fight to the death!
    THE BEST THING MACQUARIE STUDENTS CAN DO IS USE THEIR ENERGY AND THEIR MINDS TO WORK OUT A SOLUTION WHICH CAN END CONFLICT IN THE REGION RATHER THAN HAGGLING OVER DISPUTED NARRATIVES, CLAIMS, AND IDEOLOGIES!

  23. mustafa ramadan says:

    Sun 20-7-08
    Paul,

    Palestinians or Philistines

    I know all the old history of Palestine you have mentioned above. When I used the word Palestinians, I meant the people who were living in Palestine, call them Canaanites or something else, when the Israelites raided Palestine and destroyed the natives and their properties savagely as the Bible depicted. I also know that Palestine was named after the Philistines who came from the Greek island Crete as some history books say, but this doesn’t mean they were the majority of the population, simply because the land was populated by natives whom I called Palestinians i.e. people living in Palestine. Exact names don’t count much.

    Let’s put this ancient history aside and focus on the PRESENT and the actual issue. It’s the Zionists and the Israelis who want Palestine as a Jewish state for Jews only. When Rabin started the peace process, the Zionist Talmudic Jews killed him, not the Arabs. What the Israelis did and are doing is against Balfour Declaration, The Partition of Palestine resolution and all the countless UN resolutions on Palestine. The preposterous thing about Zionists is that they give themselves the right to do any horrible thing they like against their opponents and don’t want them to react. This has always been Zionist logic.

    Please say something about this and ask the Israelis to implement the UN resolutions and stop the daily humiliation of the Palestinians, usurping their lands, demolishing their homes, building new settlements on Palestinian land, cutting down their trees and assassinating their freedom fighters. It’s the Israelis who have been committing constant Pogroms and Holocausts against the Palestinians. Where are the Super Powers and the world’s conscience ?? !!

    Mustafa

  24. mustafa ramadan says:

    Tu 22 July 2008
    Paul,

    1-Who are Mcquarie students ?
    2-Do you spell your family name Mcphpharlyn (with ph ph) as above ?
    3-I would be very grateful if you could address the Israelis more directly and ask them not to insist on imposing their conditions on the Palestinians for a peaceful solution, and not to ignore the UN resolutions. Whoever the Mcquarie students might be, I don’t think they are more qualified than the UN to work out solutions for the world problems.

    Regards

    Mustafa

  25. llwynn says:

    Hi Mustafa,

    Most of the contributors to this blog are staff of Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia (except for one anonymous contributor who brings us the news roundups under the name of “banikhaldoun”). We’re based in the Anthropology, Politics, and English departments. Some but not all of the commentators are students at Macquarie. Of course blogs live in cyberspace, not in a physical location, and we are delighted to have visitors from all over the world, including yourself.

    Of course none of us are making policy decisions for the UN or any other agency. Yet this blog, like Macquarie university, is a place where opinions are shaped and knowledge is shared and this may eventually have some very tiny effect on world events, who knows? :)

    cheers
    Lisa

  26. mustafa ramadan says:

    22 July 2008

    Correction to my 22 July comment above:

    (Solution to), not (solution for)

    I hope Raffe, the greatest , is not a student at Macquarie ?
    We haven’t heard from Paul. Is he from Macqarie ?

    Cheers

    Mustafa

    Mustafa

  27. mustafa ramadan says:

    Zionism: A Psychological Interpretation

    For about eight centuries after the Crusades, the Jews were oppressed
    and persecuted mainly by the Europeans. This was culminated in the Holocaust at the hands of the Nazis who were German Europeans. Many Jews blame other Europeans, including the Americans, for not intervening and not attempting to protect them, which indirectly means that they approved the German crimes and atrocities.

    To get rid of the Jewish problem once and for all, the West helped the Jews to settle in Palestine through displacing its weak unarmed native Arabs and to achieve other covert goals. That obviously meant solving the problem of one people at the expense of another, which was done through ethnic cleansing and massacres committed by the Zionists against the Palestinians. Up to now, the Israelis have been usurping Palestinian lands and building new settlements and the civilized world is doing nothing.

    Psychologically speaking, this means that because the Jews were unable to avenge themselves on the Germans, they avenged are still avenging themselves on the Palestinians. In psychology, this is called displacement of aggression. This is neurotic behavior. So,
    the oppressed have become oppressors,
    and the ghetto prisoners have become jailors.

    To solve this problem, the Israelis and the world Jewry should understand this very well. They should stop playing the role of oppressors and jailors. They need to realize that they are surrounded by people who do not accept them. You cannot take a man’s own land and property forcibly and oppress him and humiliate him day and night and expect him to stay silent and submissive. This is incongruous and fallacious. The mere creation and 60 year existence of Israel is against the logic of nature and history. No other state in the world is like Israel. Wake up Jewish psychologists, thinkers, politicians, generals and all other people with the slightest amount of common sense!!!

    Mustafa

  28. mustafa ramadan says:

    Zioism, an International Evil

    In the 20th and 21st centuries Zionism was and still is embodied mainly by the state of Israel. Its other embodiments are the Israel Lobby in America and its Congress and the countless Zionist organizations and individuals, as well as the Zionist machine and Israel supporters in Europe and other places.

    Lots of wars and crimes have been committed because of Israel. They wouldn’t have happened if the West hadn’t created Israel and supported her for 60 years. Just imagine the world without Israel and its supporters.

    1-Without Israel, there wouldn’t have been the destruction and bloodshed resulting from the Israeli-Arab wars in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, the Invasion of Iraq in 2003, and 2006 war in Lebanon.

    2-Without Israel, there wouldn’t have been Al Qaeda and its crimes and atrocities in America, Iraq and Afghanistan.

    3-Without Israel, there wouldn’t have been “terrorist” organizations and ruthless suicide bombing and killing.

    4-Without Israel, there wouldn’t have been millions of Palestinian refugees all over the world and tens of miserable camps, as well 11000 thousand Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

    5-Without Israel, there wouldn’t have been separation walls, countless check points in Palestine, daily humiliation of Palestinians and expropriation of their land, and the heart-breaking sights of demolishing their homes and cutting down their trees by alien occupiers.

    6-Without Israel, thousands of billion dollars wouldn’t have been spent on weapons, armies and security. They could have been spent on education, development, health care, and feeding millions of starving human beings.

    7-Without Israel, there will be peace in the Middle East and in many other parts of our miserable globe.

    The creation and constant blind support of Israel cannot be counted as an achievement at all. It is illogical, fallacious, unjust, and inhumane.

    Mustafa

  29. nelson says:

    Points 1 thru 7 should read Without Islam,……….

  30. darrinh says:

    “In addition to that, many Palestinians did not want to live in a foreign country be it another Arab state or otherwise.”

    Why do they keep coming to Australia then?

  31. CF says:

    Mustafa –
    any academic or aspiring academic who can write these words, as you have:

    “Exact names don’t count much”

    has no academic credibility. If you write on any topic, being specific is very important.
    Otherwise we might suspect that you are suprimposing your emotions onto a straightforward, considerably documented historical issue.

    If you mean the ancient lands of Judea and Samaria, which were ancient Israel then you need to refer to them as such. Likewise with the Land of Canaan.
    “Palestinians” has been used to refer in the past specifically to the Jews of Palestine, not the Arabs of the region. The current Palestininas have no relation to the Philistines of the past – this has been shown over and over to be a misleading reference. I’m not an academic here so I won’t be replying here again.

    Just be aware that there are many people who know the history backwards who are aware of the inaccuracies of the debate here, even if they do not partake in it.

  32. CF says:

    Whoops, that’s “superimposing your emotions…”.

  33. CF says:

    Mustafa,

    having read your last comment here I can say this:

    without the excuse of Israel you wouldn’t have a chance to show your woeful inadequacies as scholar and would-be commentator. Get a grip and go back to school.

  34. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    You appear to have looked at the Middle East with your own
    preconceptions about Israel.

    1. I highly doubt that the creation of the state of Israel led to the
    creation of terror groups such as Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was created by
    Osama Bin Ladin as a response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
    (Soviets who funded the Arab states against Israel). It then turned
    against the United States once the Saudi Monarchy requested their
    presence in an effort to deter Saddamn Hussein after his invasion of
    Kuwait.

    2. Had the Arab states accepted the UN resolution for the creation of
    the state of Palestine then there would be no Palestinian refugee
    problem.

    3. Lets have a look at Arab states and their financial support of Palestinians.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/26/AR2008072601797.html?nav=rss_world/mideast

    Because of the creation of the State of Israel there have been generational leaps in a variety of sciences that have helped improve the welfare for billions of people. Drugs that have radically improved the treatment of MS, schizophrenia, malaria and river blindness, Alzheimer’s and dementia, spinal cord injuries, are leaders in stem cell research and are contributing to solving world hunger.

    Much of the technology that you use today is due to the State of Israel, from the computer you’re typing on to the operating system that runs it.

    Israel has contributed to the free-flow of ideas and has led to many advancements in science, human rights and medicines.

  35. mustafa ramadan says:

    To CF & Nelson

    In order not to sound naïve, sentimental and superficial, commentators should present their own judgments and produce facts. Mockery reflects nothing but intellectual bankruptcy.

    Mustafa

  36. mustafa ramadan says:

    The Two Blue Lines
    To Papachango

    If you are knowledgeable and educated, please tell us what the two blue lines on the Israeli flag mean. From my readings, I knew that they represent the two long rivers: the Euphrates (not Tigris) in Syria and Iraq, and the Nile in Egypt. The nostalgic unrealistic ambition of expansionistic Zionists was to control the area between the two rivers. In 1956 and 1967, the Israeli army occupied Sinai. In 1967 it occupied Sinai, the West Bank and the Golan heights in Syria. This is recent history, which most of us witnessed.

    If the two blue lines do not mean that, what do they mean then ? Ask Raffe. He seems to be an authority on Judaism and Zionism. He may help you. What I said about the two rivers, had been said and written tens of years before Hamas emerged. And who created Hamas ? Isn’t it Zionism and the dehumanizing and humiliating occupation of Palestine.

    Anyway, because Israel could not, and cannot,”digest” all that vast area, it withdrew from parts of it under the severe painful blows it received. It will keep withdrawing. We saw the “outstanding” performance and “bravery” of Israeli soldiers in Lebanon in 2000 and in 2006. Your beloved state is receding and shrinking. History is just cycles and ups and downs. Zionism is dying out. Ask the Israeli youth.

    Devilishly, aliens came from oblivion. They are gradually and helplessly sinking into oblivion. This is not wishful thinking. This is what history teaches us, but stiff-necked arrogant people, alas, won’t listen and learn.

    Mustafa

  37. Brian Cuban says:

    Google has recently agreed to remove the information

    <a href=”http://www.briancuban.com/zoa-convinces-google-to-cha

  38. llwynn says:

    The correct link is: http://www.briancuban.com/zoa-convinces-google-to-change-the-earth/

    For another instance of historical revisionism by the ZOA, see also this article by James Zogby on the ZOA’s disinformation campaign about the Palestinian town Deir Yassin: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/1948/373_zgby.htm. For more information on the Deir Yassin massacre, see this counterpunch article: http://www.counterpunch.org/martin05132004.html, or see the Jewish Virtual Library’s account at http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html which denies that the attack on Deir Yassin by Irgun constitutes a massacre but gives the figure of Arab Palestinians killed at more than double the figure given on the “Deir Yassin Remembered” website (http://www.deiryassin.org/).

    It’s morbidly comical that people can debate whether it constitutes a massacre or not when both sides agree on these basic facts: that between 100 and 250 people were killed, including those prisoners and noncombatants who were killed after the battle was over, that many bodies were stuffed down wells, that other corpses were shoveled into mass graves, etc.

  39. mustafa ramadan says:

    Intellectual Terrorism
    23-8-08
    Zionists and their supporters don’t want others to talk about the tragedy and misery of the Palestinians, simply because a criminal doesn’t want anybody to expose him and talk about his crime, and because a thief doesn’t like anyone to detect him and make his theft or robbery public.
    But luckily the enemies of truth cannot control the Internet. That’s why they’ve gone mad and furious. From this free platform, I salute all free Jews who have conscience and disapprove of and denounce oppressing and humiliating one people by another.
    Mustafa

  40. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,

    In your 2 August 2008 comment you asked:

    “Are there maps that show the villages of the 850,000 Jews that were forcibly removed from Arab lands in the wake of the creation of Israel ?”

    My questions are, “Did they live only in villages ?” “Which villages ?”
    “Were they forcibly removed from Arab lands ?” Give evidence.

    As far as I know, the Jewish Agency was behind tempting and forcing Jews to leave Arab countries through cunning means in order to increase the population of Israel and have more fighters. Later Israel, through USA, placed political pressure on Russia, Yemen, Syria and other countries in order to allow Jews to come to Israel.
    Most Jews in the Arab countries were rich and happy.

    Once I met a young Israeli who had been a Tunisian Jew. I asked him if he were happy in Israel, and he said no. I asked him why he had left Tunisia. He answered, “My father was a fool.”

    Mustafa

  41. mustafa ramadan says:

    Correction:

    Last paragraph

    “If he were” should be “if he was”

    Regards

    Mustafa

  42. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    The following links will give you a better understanding of expulsion of Jews from Arabia.

    http://www.wojac.com/history.html
    http://www.meforum.org/article/263
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124327
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

    In answer to your questions:
    1) Jews lived throughout Arabia and had for thousands of years. They lived in villages, cities, towns and throughout the country.
    2) Trying to find every village where Jews resided in each country is an impossible task as there are far too many and it would be difficult to find from my apartment in Sydney.
    3) In some cases the violence against Jews was state-sanctioned; in others it was not and simply angry anti-Semitic mobs.

    The Jewish Agency seeks to help Jews emigrate to Israel. Many of the countries that you listed had Jews who were in trouble and need of assistance. I’ll add another; Ethiopia. Operation Moses was a covert airlift operation that brought thousands of Jews to Israel to escape famine, which was followed up by Operation Solomon in 1991 which brought thousands more Jews in order to escape the military coups by the anti-Semitic rebels.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon

    In relation to your friend; the Tunisian Jew, you’ve given me the opinion of one man and is not an academic study. I could give you the names of half a dozen people who have migrated to Israel and are loving it there; however that wouldn’t be an academic argument.

  43. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,

    1-Since you are a Zionist Australian living in Sydney, as you said, and Jews have been praying God for 2000 years to go back home to Palestine, why don’t you migrate to Israel and love living there like the half dozen Jews you mentioned ?

    2-As far as I know, Israelites had Caucasiasn features like their cousins the Arabs. My questions is: How did some of the children of Israel became black Ethiopians ?

    Mustafa

  44. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    Where I chose to live is a personal decision. I can be a Zionist supporter without living in Israel. Jews are Jews by religion, by tradition, by nation, by ethics or by birth. There are far more non-religious Jews living in Israel than religious ones. Many Jews live outside Israel by choice. That, Mustafa is both my choice and my right.

    As to ‘black Ethiopians’, may I suggest you consult books on the Queen of Sheba, King Solomon, Menelik, the Emperor Haile Selassie, and Operation Solomon in which 20,000 Ethiopians who claimed to be Jewish dating back to pre-Christian times were rescued in 1991.

  45. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,
    12-10-08

    How can a Jew be a Jew by ethics or tradition? Could you give examples ?
    To my knowledge a Jew is considered a Jew if he has a Jewish mother.

    You said the Ethiopian Jews were rescued in 1991. My question is, “Were they in danger then ?” “Did they ask for help ?”

    That reminds me. Israel has been a state for 60 years. What are its borders ?

    Mustafa

  46. mustafa ramadan says:

    Israeli Democracy to Arabs

    Raffe,
    Please comment.

    Last update – 20:32 12/10/2008
    Olmert: Israeli Arabs have long suffered discrimination
    By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent

    Tags: Ehud Olmert, Israel news

    Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday said that Israel’s Arab population has long faced discrimination and urged an improvement in relations between all the country’s citizens.

    “There is no doubt that for many years there has been discrimination against the Arab population that stemmed from various reasons,” Olmert told a group of Israeli Arab leaders.

  47. Raffe says:

    One can convert to Judaism if they so wish. They then join a people that have recently celebrated their 5769th since the creation of this Earth. You are correct that Judaism runs through the vein of the mother. For more information of Judaism i suggest you consult your closest rabbi.

    In relation to the Jews rescued in Operation Solomon. Please compare Ethiopia to Israel. In Ethiopia they were oppressed and starving. In Israel they are given the right to live freely, participate in the democratic process and, most importantly, are able to go to bed with a full stomach.

    The borders of Israel have fluctuated over the years. Territory has been captured and relinquished over the signing of peace agreements since the State was founded. What must be established is how small the borders are. At her narrowest point she is only 15 kilometers wide.

    In relation to Olmert’s comments i totally agree.

    I’ve never denied that discrimination exists. One reason being, which you may not be aware of, is because Arabs are not required to serve in the military. Because of this they are often denied jobs in the government which require security clearance. Discrimination may be overt, but more often than not, covert. However there are laws against discrimination of minorities and those that are caught are punished.

    That being said, whilst no one should be discriminated, many of these Arabs are receive a better education, have more rights and are represented in the democratic system than in almost all other countries in the Middle East. This is not an excuse for those that discriminate but you should bear it in mind.

  48. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe
    13-10-08

    You said that “the borders of Israel have fluctuated over years.” Did they fluctuate by themselves or through Israel expansionistic wars and adventures ? Do states’ borders fluctuate like the rates of the Euro and dollar ?

    You also said “territory has been relinquished over the signing of peace agreements.”
    What about your IDF sudden withdrawal from south Lebanon in 2000 ? Did Barak sign a peace agreement with Lebanon or Hizballah in that year ?

    Mustafa

  49. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    Why are you asking me questions that you already seem to know the answer to?

    This is a board that debates a very complex situation not a place for opportunistic statements.

  50. mustafa ramadan says:

    17Oct 2008
    Raffe,

    This is a site for free dialoq. I put my questions in order to get your own answers to points you yourself raised. I don’t need my answers. This is not opportunism on my part. And I wonder if you consider your statement above scholarly and courageous. You’ve been courageous several times which I really appreciated. Our dialogs have been useful and enlightening, I think.

    Mustafa

  51. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    I apologise that i misinterpreted your statement.

    I consider the majority of Israel’s wars to have been defensive in nature. I also believe that when Israel has been approached with the option of making peace it has tried to make it work. It signed two peace agreements with her neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, and surrendered all the land that those governments requested.

    I’ve already spoken about my objection to the expansion of settlements and to the continual occupation of Palestinian land. However; I also believe that the majority of Israeli’s support withdrawing from the territories. There was a huge support for disengagement in 2005 and right now there are more teens avoiding the draft, preferring to be incarcerated than serve in the West Bank/Gaza Strip. I predict, and please don’t consider this a professional opinion, that Israel will disengage over the next five years fully from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. There will be a giant high-way of some kind that connects the Gaza to the West Bank and with over the next decade or two we’ll see the creation of an economically viable Palestinian state.

    In relation to Lebanon. All people tire of war. The Israeli people saw no need to continue operating in the south of Lebanon and so withdrew all their forces. However they were replaced by the Iranian-funded Hezbollah and this led to a quasi-like terrorist state being erected to the immediate north of the State of Israel. Hezbollah would continue to rain missiles over the border and hit Israeli towns, villages and forests.

  52. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,
    21-10-08

    I’d like to remind you that Hizballah was created in reaction to Israeli repeated invasions of south Lebanon in the 1970’s and 1980’s that were culminated by Israel occupation of the whole south Lebanon in 1982 and bombarding and besieging Beirut for about three months. So, Hizballah is not a terrorist movement or state. It resisted Israel occupation and forced Barak’s army to withdraw stealthily in 2000. It will not “rain missiles” over Israel if the IOF pulls out of the rest of Lebanese lands, Shabaa Farms and other adjacent areas. Why doesn’t it withdraw now ? Ask Barak.
    Hizballah is funded by Iran as Israel is funded by America. What’s strange about that?

    Mustafa

  53. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    Whilst Hezbollah may have been created in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon that does not justify it’s existence. Plenty of resistance groups have been created that don’t intentionally target civilian populations. I would have no problem with Hezbollah if they targeted only the IDF troops who are tasked with defending the nation. Hezbollah has been declared a terrorist group by the United States, Israel, Canada and the Netherlands along with sections of the group being declared a terrorist entity by Australia and the United Kingdom. They have been responsible for numerous kidnappings and the bombing in 1994 of a Jewish Centre in Argentina which killed 85 people. They are a terrorist group regardless of when, and how, they were set up and regardless of any social welfare programs that they may have for the Lebanese community.

    According to the United Nations Israel withdrew fully from all Lebanese territory in June 2008 (though it had withdrawn a majority of her forces in 2000).

    Cite: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000618.sc6878.doc.html

    In relation to the Shebaa farms I can only direct you to this article in Dar Al Hayat newspaper:

    The conflict over the Shebaa farms is only an example that reflects the naivety of a part of the Arab masses. The issue over these farms was created to justify Resistance operations from Lebanon after the UN had created the Blue Line following Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon. The Shebaa farms were placed inside Syrian territory. It should be noted that Syria, which claims that the farms are Lebanese, has not presented a single document to the UN to prove it. More than that, Syria refuses to demarcate its borders with Lebanon. It rejects especially any demarcation that includes the Shebaa farms under the pretext that these are territory under Israeli occupation.

    Cite: http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/OPED/07-2006/Article-20060728-b49960a1-c0a8-10ed-01ce-4de8b0ca56ad/story.html

  54. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,

    4-11-08

    Who are the real terrorists ?

    1-First, who killed more civilians, Hizballah or your IOF ?
    2-Who leveled many parts of Beirut and its infrastructure in 2006 with American bombs and missiles ?
    3-Who practices state terrorism ?
    4-Who were the first terrorists in Palestine ? Weren’t they the Jewish Irgun gang members who blew up King David in Jerusalem, which lodged British mandate men, and were the nucleus of your IOF in 1948 along with other gangs such as Hagana and Stern ?
    5-Who committed the atrocious massacres against the Palestinians in Haifa, Jaffa,Teera, Tantura, Deir Yassin, Jenin and Gaza ? And against the Lebanese in Beirut, Qana, and countless villages and towns in the south ? And against the Egyptians in Bahr Al Baqar children school and Abu Za’bal factory in the 1970’s?

    To know more, search for Israeli Terrorism and Massacres against Palestinians in the Net.

    Mustafa

  55. Raffe says:

    Mustafa,

    1- In answer to your question ‘who killed more civilians, Hezbollah or the IDF?’ I have to make clear how I perceive these attacks. I blame the majority of civilian death on Hezbollah, Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating against Israel. These are groups that hide amongst civilians and use women and children as human shields. They intentionally hide in schools and homes, against international law, because they know that Israel would not fire on civilians.

    A video showing Hezbollah firing rockets from civilian areas. Israel dropped leaflets and made calls to civilians to warn them to evacuate as they were beginning ground and air operations.

    Cite: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+from+Lebanon-+Hizbullah/IDF+warns+Lebanese+civilians+to+leave+danger+zones+3-Aug-2006.htm

    2- In regards to ‘who leveled many parts of Beirut…..’ I’ve never denied that civilian areas were bombed. Civilians were killed and every innocent death is a tragedy. However, Hezbollah controlled sections of Beirut and was able to manipulate the media for their own means. There were numerous reports coming out of Beirut of Hezbollah forces strong-arming the media and demanding that they film particular areas of the neighborhood in order to show a greater area of destruction. I’m not saying that there was no bombing of civilian areas…there were. But there was also a heavy bias against Israel in the last war.

    Cite: (Under the heading ‘Our Very Strange Day with Hezbollah’)
    http://edition.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/archives/2006_07_23_ac360_archive.html

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3288406,00.html

    3- Who practices State Terrorism- Good question. Let’s make a list of all countries that have bombed civilian areas or intentionally massacred civilians. Well I believe that list would contain every country in the world. I’m not aware of a single country that has not practiced state terrorism. If you can name one then i’m more than happy to be proven wrong. However, you shouldn’t automatically accuse Israel of state terror and conveniently forget all other nations. What about they Syrians and their massacre at Hama which killed upwards of 25,000 of their own civilians?

    4- First terrorists in Palestine- Just as i’ve condemned the settler movement for their actions i’ll condemn the Irgun, Lehi and other groups that were involved in civilian deaths.

    5- Massacres: You’ve given me a list of attacks by civilians. I’m not going to sit here and refute every single one of them because in many cases Israel is guilty (you forgot Sabra and Shatilla btw). However the ‘massacre’ in Gaza has been discredited as Palestinian propaganda. Rather than the ‘thousands killed’ as was claimed it turns out that 56 Palestinians, the majority of whom were fighters and not civilians, were killed and 23 Israeli soldiers. Considering it was a ground operations that lasted for more than a week that low death toll is exceptional.

    Cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin

  56. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,

    13 Nov 2008

    It’s good that you condemn the massacres and atrocities committed by Israel. I also remind you of countless cowardly covert assassinations and horrible illegal acts. Don’t you think that Israel has been founded in the wrong place ? There has been killing and wars between the Arabs and Israelis for sixty years, which Jews could have avoided if their leaders had bee wiser and kept away from Palestine. Is the Jews tragedy due to their miscalculation or their destiny as it is mentioned in some holy scriptures ?

    Mustafa

  57. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,
    10-12-08
    Nature & Example of my Debates

    Raffe,

    My judgments might be tiring to you and to others, but I find our debates interesting and enlightening and they may be so to some readers, especially because I, more or less, exemplify educated Arabs living in the simmering Arab region, while you exemplify educated Zionists living in peaceful green Australia.

    I ask you, Stewart and Lisa to bear with me. I’m an Arab whose hand is in fire, while your hands are in water. Our Arabic proverb is, “He whose hand is in fire, cannot be like one whose hand is in water.” So, I’m sorry for being too direct and a bit aggressive. But still, I present facts, as I believe.

    In my comment to Stewart dated 5-12-above I didn’t say that you yourself are using immoral means and have inhuman goals as you claimed, simply because you don’t represent the active Zionist offensive machine. You are a blogger and a student as I understand from you recent comments. Please re-read my comment.

    As for America’s support of its allies and giving billions of dollars to them, I say that it’s very good that you yourself said it. The allies who are getting money from the US in the Middle East now are mainly Israel, Jordan and Egypt. It’s quite understandable that Israel gets large annual visible and invisible aid and takes the lion’s share, because it’s the permanent American ally in the helpless Arab region, and because it was created by the US in order to serve American strategist interests. Quite clear !

    Egypt and Jordan are given American aid (bribes) in order to be neutralized in the Arab Israeli conflict and remain loyal to American policies in the area, as all educated Arabs from those countries say, and as all the world knows.

    As for the 20 billion dollars given by America to Saudi Arabia, please give proof and citation (as you asked me to do), so that I may believe you. I also ask you to tell me when, how and why this happened. I’m not defending that country.

    Mustafa

  58. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffe,
    12-12-08

    Was Abraham a Jew ? No, he wasn’t. Because you like links, here’s one:

    http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20001219.htm

    Shalom & laila tov

    Mustaf

  59. mustafa ramadan says:

    Correction

    Paragraph 4 above, last two lines:

    (strategic) not (stratigist) interests. Quite clear !

  60. mustafa ramadan says:

    I’m sorry for the American people for shoeing their president in Baghdad.

    Mustafa

  61. llwynn says:

    That’s a kind sentiment to express, Mustafa. I am sorry for all the Iraqi people who have died as a result of the unjustified U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. I think that is a lot worse than having shoes thrown at you.

  62. mustafa ramadan says:

    Some people saythat the Iraqis gave Bush the farewell he deserves

  63. mustafa ramadan says:

    25-2-09
    Lisa,
    Thank you Lisa for trying to be a peace-maker, but we have all noticed that Raffe has been defending Zionism and Israel readily almost all the time. This contradicts with his being an academic as he claims. The state of Israel has been condemned by the United Nations countless times, and it ignored the Security Council resolutions many times, and Israel was considered the greatest threat to world peace by world opinion, yet the “golden” academic still defends that unnatural state and its “academics”.
    Belinda,
    We should bear with Raffe through debate and argument. This what makes this site interesting, yet teasing. God help us!!!
    Raffe,
    Why have you changed your name to Raffegold ? Are you the same person ? Or Raffegold is your offspring ?!

  64. raffegold says:

    Mustafa,

    I have not claimed to be an academic; rather I have stated that this is a blog that debates in an academic manner; which involves a certain level of civility and claims should be sourced. I am in fact a politics student at Macquarie and have been taught by several of the contributors of this blog.

    In answer to your claim of the United Nations and Israel. Israel has been receiving a disproportionate amount of attention in the United Nations; this leads to many other human rights breaches being overlooked or not debated. Israel has been condemned more often than any other nation. This includes massacres in Darfur, Bosnia, Rwanda, Sierra Leonne etc etc

    My name changed from Raffe to Raffegold because I created my own blog on wordpress. This has created an automatic login for me which means I don’t have to write in my username and password every time. There was no attempt at deception but merely one of those things that computers do these days

  65. mustafa ramadan says:

    Thursday 26-2-2009
    Raffe,
    Interesting !
    So, “Israel has been receiving disproportionate amount of attention”
    What do you mean by “attention” ? Don’t you think that the word should be replaced by another ?

    Do you mean that the UN was unfair to Israel ? How could it be fair ?

    Also, could you tell us how much “proportionate” the IOF war and massacre in Gaza was ?

    Please don’t answer in the stereotype manner of Silvan Shalom and please don’t say, as you said once, that I am asking questions that I know their answers.
    WE ARE DEBATING.

  66. Belinda says:

    Mustafa, thankyou for your advice habibi. But it’s just not possible to bear with this facade of civility. The irony of it is that it’s easy to be civil, controlled and calculating when you’re in the wrong. I imagine that when Raffe speaks, he holds the same poker face that Israeli officials seem to have when being interviewed about civilian deaths, and their “humane” methods of war-mongering. And one day, since i am also a student at this university, i might bear witness to this spectacle.
    However Mustafa, it is simply not in my nature to disengage my passion, all for the sake of politically correct “civility”. I won’t do it, and i strongly disagree with the air of elitism coming from certain contributors to this blog. You and i are not being assessed, our opinions are our own, and in all honesty, it’s easy to hinge your argument on some body else’s lack of references when you yourself take a ridiculous position. All a smokscreen hayete…and it is for this reason that i’m simply not bothered. There are much more important things going on in Sydney at the moment that can contribute to the resistance, than trying to remove the victim chip off Raffe’s shoulder.

  67. raffegold says:

    Mustafa,

    When talking about proportionality, especially in the latest Gaza conflict, it is important to take into account both the deaths that the rockets had caused (which were very few) and the deaths that they could have caused (potentially many) due to the fact that they were aimed at civilian areas.

    When investigating war crimes Luis Moreno-Ocampo, Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, published an open letter of his findings.

    “Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)

    On several occasions rockets hit kindergartens; thankfully no children were killed. Had the rockets exploded and murdered dozens of infants would any nation have stood by and not committed defence forces? Israel has finally acted because it cannot take the chance that the buildings would be empty.

    The attacks in Gaza were a response to several years worth of rocket attacks. It was also the most ethical military action in the last century. No other country has done more to minimise civilian casualties and acted accordingly to International Humanitarian Law.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059925.html

    Belinda,

    I’m not being smug, elite nor is this a facade despite what you think. I’m simply giving you my point of view. I haven’t asked you to disengage your passion from this topic. The only thing I ask is that you keep an open mind to all sides of the argument and to treat me with the same respect that you believe you should be treated with.

  68. mustafa ramadan says:

    Fri 27-2-09
    Raffe,
    This is a cut and paste comment, from USA, on the article you referred to, both published in Haaretz.

    “Title: Disgraceful Article!
    Name: Matt
    City: State: USA

    “This is a perfect example of the Jews re-writing international law to justify their attacks on civilians. The ILD should be tried in the world court, along with the rest of the IDF commanders who have the orders. They will be judged for their crimes, if not now, is the history books.”

    I add, because the IOF was so humane, it triggered the unprecedented global condemnation of Israel we all have seen on TV. My question is: What would have happened if the IOF hadn’t been that humane ???!!!

    Raffe,
    Your way of philosophizing is really unique and amusing !!!

    Mustfa

  69. Belinda says:

    And so lies the problem. I don’t ask for your respect, i don’t need it and i don’t want it. And i don’t see why, if i think your point of view is deluded, i can’t express that. I’m not a princess Raffe, i don’t need people’s respect to validate my opinion. I have no desire to hold hands and sing with you, and you simply cannot demand an open mind from me when not only do i know your argument, its not new, sorry to break it to you, but i stongly believe that you’re wrong. This notion that everyone can have an opinion, and we all need to respect is rubbish, and it’s a White Western world notion. If your opinion is lies, propaganda, can be disproved, and condones, however indirectly, the theft of land and genocide, then no, you don’t deserve my respect, and i’m not interested in yours. There is not a shred of idealism in my thought-making process, i am an Arab, an activist, and i whole heartedly support all forms of active resistance, violent or not!!! People like me are the result of the power structure in this messed up world and we won’t go away.

    I actually find it darkly ironic that we’re discussing a highly contentious issue, on the other side of the world, an issue where thousands of people can be, and are regularly, killed at the whim of the enemy, with no regard to basic human dignity. Yet, i, and others like Mustafa and Roslyn, are being called to task for not REFERENCING? or not being CIVIL?

    If that’s not elitism, i don’t know what is.

    In all your posts you’ve used these terms peace, respect, civility…! To what end???

    Your nation, founded on lies, terror, and coercion…has never had been civil in its dealings with Arabs. So why call for my civility?

    Your nation has never respected the land, culture and heritage of my fellow Arabs, so why ask for my respect?

    Your nation has never taken a move forward toward peace, that didnt in some way serve another purpose for them, so why should we see peace as the ultimate goal?

    I’ve said this before, and i’ll say it again. Peace affords no dignity to the Arab blood that floods that land. Peace won’t bring back bulldozed homes, family members, or the ability to sleep at night.

    And for this reason, i don’t see why i should have to maintain a fake air of civility with you. I don’t just type words because they are my political beliefs and then get up from the computer and live my life in an entirely different fashion. I don’t sell-out.

    I don’t like you, i don’t like your opinions, i dont like your bias, i don’t like your references, i dont like the lies you sprout, i dont like the air of arrogance that ive seen you address other people with, i dont like the way you cower when you’re hit with an argument you can’t handle, i dont like the way you chose insignificant lines of posts to address. And most importantly, i don’t like the way you belittle posts that aren’t perhaps as grammatically correct as others, yet never rise to the challenge of posts that are sophisticated. You behave like a schoolyard bully. And really, from a man who has wasted wayyyy too much line space on academia, sourcing claims, and the fashion in which one “should” debate, um…i think wikipedia is a bit rich?

    Anyway, this probably won’t even get posted, because as well as the school yard bully, you seem to be teachers pet as well, and the similarities between Israel’s global position and behaviour, and your position and behaviour on this blog are endless.

    Maybe a Chavez will come to my aid and make sure this gets posted.

  70. MS says:

    Belinda is right in saying that not all views and opinions inherently deserve respect or even civility (though the claim that it is a ‘White Western world notion’ not only makes zero sense but is also blatantly racist).

    It is too often the case that crazy, oppressive and idiotic traditions and cultures are defended on this basis.

    Wrong, however, is it to suggest Israel has no regard or no civility towards its Arab neighbours. Not only does Israel have a very civil relationship with Jordan and Egypt, Arabs within Israel ironically have more civil rights and have a higher standard of living than anywhere else in the Arab world. To vote, have political parties, protest, move freely, the list goes on.

    Belinda, you are entirely correct to feel outraged at what goes on in the Middle East to your Arab brethren. Equally, you are right to be outraged at the silence that is so petrifyingly loud around the globe towards the Middle Eastern oppressors. The horrific torture that the Arab government security forces use on their Arab citizens; the Arab homosexuals that get mutilated and executed by thugs and govenrments in the Arab nations as well as Hamas controlled territory; the women who arent allowed to drive or leave the house unaccompanied in Saudi Arabia; the Arab children who are taught that to blow themselves up is of the highest virtue; the women who get stoned to death for having been raped; the list is endless.

    Where is the world’s outrage at the gross oppression of these many many millions?

  71. Rob says:

    MS your mis-guided comments are dripping with sarcasm and elitism that only goes to highlight your embedded racist views of a people you have no understanding of.

    The Israeli Army has committed some of, if not the worst atrocities towards the Palestinians over the past 60+ years but if anyone dare condemn them, they are labelled anti semitic. You continue to hide behind the holocaust and yet your army has committed war crimes of equal magnitude. Your children are taught to hate the Arabs as if they were the devil and yet it’s your very smug attitudes that have caused generations of violence and indifference.

    Belinda’s comments are as far as I can see, 100% correct and it is your contrived response that says so much about the person you are.

  72. Josh says:

    Belinda,

    your notion that you should not have to talk about peace because of bulldozed houses and arab blood spilled is extremely sad. the simple fact is that in this conflict blood has flowed on both sides, and Israeli men, women, and children have also been slaughtered in coffee houses, on buses, and in supermarkets for no reason other than that they were born israeli. If we are to simply say that we cannot discuss peace because of the bloody history of this conflict, then we will never have peace or concessions from either side. similarly, had that statement been made with reference to conflicts in places such as Ireland, where a number of my close frineds originate, we would still be seeing blood flowing on a daily basis. I find it extremely disturbing that many of the posts on this blog, including yours take a line that will ensure another generation grows up in hatred, and the land of milk and honey continues to be one of tears. Had others in Ireland made statements similar to those you make, my friends’ families would still be living in constant fear, and would undoubtedly have witnessed the needless deaths of many, instead of enjoying the relative quiet and peace which now reigns.

  73. Belinda says:

    Firstly, racism is very closely related to power, and the use of power in the creation of the other. So this cute little term reverse racism, that white people use when they feel left out, is a fallicy. So my belief that the notion is a white, western world one, actually makes a hell of a lot of sense, and cannot be easily lumped in the “racism” box. No third world, colonised mentality can be accused of racism, simply because their feelings toward the coloniser stem from a powerless position. Resistance, yes, racism, definitely not.

    And wow, what a kind gesture that Arabs in Israel are afforded more benefits that Jews. Now all we have to do is fix that nasty little problem called systematic genocide, in the illegally occupied territories, where people cannot move freely, think freely, or simply exist freely, and Israel will be the global leader in human rights…yeah?

    Jordan and Egypt are sell-outs, to put it plainly, and the death of Pan-Arabism signalled the advent of these types of “civil relationships”. The moment they stopped caring about the wrongs committed against their brothers, they became ‘civil’???? Pretty harsh innuendo about the effects of colonisation…but that’s a whole other post. Egypt’s position during the last Gaza massacre is indicative of why Egpyt was perhaps not a perfect example to use to convince me of Israel’s wonderful relationship with Arabs.

    As for the rest of your post, i think you missed the point somewhere along the line. What Arab governments, or any government for that matter, choose to do in their own countries, to their own people…is not the issue at hand. But since you insist, i will address it. I do not condone violence against women, torture or any human rights abuses. This thread, and every thread on this blog i have responded to, has been specifically about the Arab/Israeli conflict. The terror inflicted upon Arabs by Israelis is the point at hand, and to ignore that and attempt to use my argument for an entirely different purpose that i’m not interested in contesting, is a rather petulant response.

    I’m not even going to grace all of that with a detailed response, but i will make a few points. To refuse to acknowledge the religious, cultural and social factors that cloud these countries policies is a prety simplistic analysis, and unless you’re a student of Sharia’a law, which i highly doubt, i wouldn’t even bother. Secondly, you refuse to acknowledge the responsibility of the patriarchy in these policies, and the important role gendered power structures play in the mis-interpretation of Islam, hence these policies. Thirdly, no country is more adept at torture, on its own citizens and anyone else who gets in their way, than Israel, who coincidently enough also brought the first act of terror to the region. No country practises the art of state sanctioned terror as precisely as Israel. And fourthly, if this is how you chose to approach my argument, by referencing human rights abuses irrelevant to my point…then please, don’t discriminate. What about America’s health system? Or the use of crack cocaine as a tool by administrations? Or Guantanamo Bay? Or the numerous African and South American governments who torture, mistreat and massacre their own people? Or the Chinese regime? Or Russia? Or are they all exempt because they weren’t mentioned in my post in relation to Israel???

    Please try and stay relevant.

  74. Belinda says:

    I think you’re ignoring one very important point Josh, which is that the situation in Ireland is one of religious divide. Both sides of the conflict are Irish. Um, i fail to see the connection. This is not about what God you worship, even though the western world love to simplify it to Judaism/Islam. It’s about a coloniser GIVING AWAY your land!!!! And then your land being stolen, piece by piece, over 60 years, until whatever is left is occupied anyway, and you are forced to live in an open air prison. If you even live that long!

    And i’m sorry, but do the maths, the number of Arab dead far far outweighs the number of Israeli dead.

    There is no proportionate measure to Israel’s madness, this has never been, and never will be, a fair fight. To inflict these horrors upon Palestinians from a position of power, as they always have, does not make this a conflict Josh. It’s systematic genocide. Not much in common with Ireland.

    And if you had read my post above properly, you would have noticed my point, i am an activist, and i stand by any kind of resistance. I’m sorry if it upsets you that i’m not interested in dialogue about peace, but i’m not alone. Unfortunately Israel, and indeed the world, has created this situation, and there will be no peace. Whether i get on here and express my views or not, at least i’m safe. There are generations of children born under occupation who have nothing in their hearts but hate, and i don’t understand how you could possibly blame them. What do you think you would have??? Like i said, i don’t have time for idealism, what happened to the Palestinians is real, and will continue to be real. Whether they are part of the diaspora, in the OPT, or living the “good” life as MS suggested, in Israel…their oppression is real. And i dont think you or anyone else who speaks of peace so lightly does these people any justice.

  75. Belinda says:

    Correction to my first post, i meant Arabs in Israel are afforded more benefits than Arabs in other Middle Eastern countries, not Jews.

  76. mustafa ramadan says:

    28-2-09
    To MS & Josh

    I’m sorry to say that you are almost a carbon copy of Raffe: the same simplistic manner of presentation, the same honeyed tongue, and the same pitiful failure to look into the core of the Palestinian tragedy.
    I expected a deep and fair comment from you, but I was really disappointed.

    Mustafa

  77. MS says:

    I find this absolutely incredible.

    I did not, nor did I intend to, address all your points re the Israeli/Arab conflict. Nor do atrocities in Arab nations justify any atrocities elsewhere. However, if you cared to open your eyes, and genuinely cared about Arab suffering, you would would certainly divert some of the profound rage and hatred you hold towards Israel towards autocratic and despotic Arabic regimes. That is an uncontroversial statement.

    Rob, did I mention the Holocaust or anti-semitism? Only you brought it up.

    Belinda, noone of any reasonable alignment, even NGOs like Amnesty, suggest that Israel tortures its citizens, certainly not to any systematic extent such as in the Arab nations. The Supreme Court has expressly ruled it illegal. Also, thought I may not be a Sharia scholar, I am entirely indifferent as to the Sharia justification for female oppression or other illiberal and atrocities committed by govenrments in those countries. Those acts are wrong, no matter who the perpetrator or what the justification.

    To compare a flawed health system to systematic repression and torture truly shows how myopic your world view is. And you’re absolutely right, China and Russia should also be condemned for their oppressive conduct. Similalry so should Amercia and Australia and anyone else when they commit human rights abuses. However, human rights abuses in Australia, for example, are negligable when compared to the Arabic societies.

    DO you know what genocide is? The systematic erradication of a people? In what way is Israel trying to kill 5million Palestinians? What planet do you live on? Even the worst framing of the Gaza onslaught (which you no doubt hold) comes nowhere near any semblance of genocide. What a joke.

    And Mustafa, you’re a complete tool. How deep and fair of you.

  78. Belinda says:

    I’ve just scrolled back on this thread and noticed something i have to comment on.

    Raffe, your third post makes reference to the alleged radio broadcasts in Arab nations urging Palestinians to leave in the mass exodus period. I think you’ll find, if you attempt to do your research properly, that it has been proven, by independant British journalists, after searching through the archives of the BBC, which recorded EVERY SINGLE Arab radio broadcast of the period, that not only was there no mention of leaving, Palestinians were in fact urged to stay, and protect their land, homes and families.

    The reason i happen to know this is that i teach the Arab/Israeli conflict in the Modern History HSC syllabus, and this evidence has been used as a source, by SIX different schools, and that’s only among the students i tutor. And when one takes into account the HSC course is distinctly Pro-Zionist, and makes no apology for that, i think that’s pretty conclusive, don’t you?

    17 year old high school students are aware of this lie. And you’re propagating it on this blog?

  79. Belinda says:

    Tool? How academic and scholarly of you????

    Whether i agreed that Arab governments are guilty of human rights abuses or not, is not the point. The point that you have missed time and time again. You must be presbyopic, since the optical allusions are running rampant!

    The point was, and i’ll try this again, your attempt to hijack my own argument, paraphrasing my own words, simply deflected attention off Israel, to other Arab governments.

    I have not posted in regard to human rights abuses by governments against their own people, my concern, was, and still is…human rights abuses committed by Israel against Arabs. I specifically don’t call them Palestinians, because there are thousands of Lebanese men, for example, being held in Israeli prisons, without trial.

    Whether my eyes are open to other abuses is not the point, and where i direct my rage, and how many issues i happen to be enraged about in this world, is also not the point, and none of your business. To attempt to hijack an argument for a purpose entirely different from its intended purpose, and to attempt to put your own quantifiable measures on how much i do or do not care about Arab suffering…is a highly controversial statement!

    As for your naive belief that Israel does not torture its citizens, for the reason that it is illegal… pffffttt…lots of things are illegal, you could tell that to a friend of mine, who happens to be an Israeli, and was imprisoned and tortured. Or the countless other Israeli citizens he knows that have endured such a thing. But hey, they must be so pro-Arab that they probably deserved it huh?

    And while i did not say that Sharia’a law justified these abuses, i did say, and i will say again, that to not acknowledge all these factors when attempting to embark upon the discourse, is a dangerous practise. And usually only done by white people, or better yet, Israelis, in their attempts to demonise Islam. At least Arabic human rights campaigners have a deeply embedded understanding of why these things are deemed acceptable, despite the fact that they fight for change.

    Human rights abuses are negligable in Australia? Ok, good thing i didn’t mention Australia. I have a strong suspicion that it wouldn’t matter what country i mentioned, and even the worst offenders, like China and Rusia, would pale in comparison with the Arabs, in your mind that is, MS.

    And i’m not even going to grace that condescending line about the meaning of the word genocide. You obviously believe you have a monopoly on erradication and suffering. Maybe you should do some research as to how many Arabs, since the creation of Israel, are dead, maimed, or missing. “Framing of the onslaught”???????? Are you in your right mind? The only framing that came out of Gaza was the one done by Israel!!!! Palestine received the strongest show of support from the global community than its had in years. The only botched numbers and reports that came out of that MASSACRE were from the IDF.

    Even Gaza doesn’t constitute genocide? Um…ok…if that’s not enough for you, what about the last 60 years???? Or was Gaza the first instance of Israeli violence?

    And please, keep finding this incredible. That’s nothing compared to the complete and utter disbelief and disgust i experience when i think that people who can recite these lies by rote, really do exist.

  80. mustafa ramadan says:

    Mon 2-3-09
    MS,

    I didn’t understand your describing me as ” a complete tool”. What kind of tool and whose tool am I ? If you mean something else, that does reflect your “lofty” upbringing and background, and I won’t go down to your level. In either case, this is evidence of your intellectual bankruptcy.
    What do you mean by “How deep and fair of you” ? Please explain, but briefly, so as not to tire yourself and waste your time and the readers’ time. I remind you that sarcasm can never be a method for proper argument.

    Mustafa

  81. raffegold says:

    Belinda,

    I comment on this blog because it is academic. There are plenty of forums in which you can comment on if you want to vent your anger at Israel’s actions in the Middle East.

    This blog appeals to me because there is civility in academic arguments. It was created in order to bring together a range of different views and to discuss them in an open and academic manner.

    Please see the Khaldoun comments policy:

    ‘Free speech comes with obligations of human decency and comments must meet the basic expectations of a rational, tolerant and inclusive society.’

    Saying that:

    ‘I don’t like you, i don’t like your opinions, i dont like your bias, i don’t like your references, i dont like the lies you sprout, i dont like the air of arrogance that ive seen you address other people with, i dont like the way you cower when you’re hit with an argument you can’t handle, i dont like the way you chose insignificant lines of posts to address.’

    I have never made any comments against you or any personal feelings I may have towards you. I have always deconstructed your argument and pointed out why I disagree with you.

    You note how I keep using the words ‘peace, respect and civility’ and yet you seem to think that is a bad thing. I believe in open debate in a courteous manner and, above all, peace. I believe that peace in the region will come soon and that a stepping stone towards peace is respectful debate.

  82. mustafa ramadan says:

    Raffegold,

    The same honey words again.
    In order to know the kind of your debate, re-read your poststings since July 2008.
    You remind me of the ancient Shimon Peres and his speeches and statements.

  83. mustafa ramadan says:

    correction: honeyed words

  84. raffegold says:

    Mustafa,

    Thank you for the compliment. I have great respect for the Nobel Peace Prize winner and current President of Israel.

  85. Belinda says:

    And we come again to the concept of a smokescreen. Your lack of honesty is disheartening, and my initial reasons for that post were to highlight the underhand method with which you actually do the opposite of these high minded notions you sprout. The way in which you address posts is not courteous, but you seem to think no-one can see through the veneer. My honesty makes me no less deserved of posting on this blog than you, and these aspirations you seem to have toward academia are getting a little pompous to be honest.

    I don’t really have time for this, seeing as i am also a student here. Let the ‘scholarly, civil’ discussion resume. And since you are yet to deconstruct any of my arguments on any thread, i wait with bated breath! :)

  86. Rosalyn says:

    Well Raffe not everyone who is a nobel prize winner is worthy of the award. A friend of mine visited the Nobel Institute in Oslo. They were having some kind of open day. He stood there and looked at a picture of Kissenger and in his head was wondering how in the world someone like Kissenger could be awarded a prize for peace. Anyway one staff member from the Institute approached him and looked up at Kissenger and said “Yes even we get it wrong sometimes”. And since then they have gotten so wrong so many times. The man responsible for Operation Grapes of Wrath in South Lebanon in 1996 getting a peace prize? Simply laughable.

  87. mustafa ramadan says:

    Shimon Peres, a Nobel Prize Winner & Qana Massacre
    Raffegold,
    Your Nobel Prize winner was the prime minister of Israel when the IOF committed Qana Massacre in Lebanon in 1996. Because you like citation and referencing, read what Wikipedia says about this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre

    “1996 shelling of Qana
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (Redirected from Qana Massacre)
    Jump to: navigation, search
    For the 2006 incident, see Qana airstrike.
    The shelling of Qana, also referred to as the Qana massacre,[1][2] took place on April 18, 1996 in Qana, a village in Southern Lebanon, when Israeli artillery hit the area of a UN compound near Qana. Of the 800 Lebanese civilians who had taken refuge in the compound to escape the fighting, 106 were killed and around 116 injured. Four Fijian United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon soldiers were also seriously injured. [3][4]

    The incident took place amid heavy fighting between the Israeli Defense Forces and Hezbollah during “Operation Grapes of Wrath”. A United Nations military investigation later determined it was unlikely that Israeli shelling of the U.N. compound was the result of technical or procedural errors.[5]”

    Please don’t say, as you usually do in similar cases, that Hizballah men were hiding there.

  88. mustafa ramadan says:

    Read how an Arab columnist views Israel and the Palestinian problem. Interesting!

    See the article “A khazari Thief” The link is:

    http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/OPED/03-2009/Article-20090306-dc73ef9d-c0a8-10ed-0042-76fdbf10ce7b/story.html

    This is an invitation to comment.

  89. raffegold says:

    Rosalyn,

    I completely agree with you. Yasser Arafat was involved in many terrorist acts against the State of Israel and yet he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize

  90. raffegold says:

    Mustafa,

    I’ve never stated anywhere that Israel is perfect or that it does not make mistakes. The bombing of Qana was horrible. There’s nothing else that can be said.

  91. Rosalyn says:

    I love how you mention Arafat as if you’ve trumped my point regarding the validity of the Nobel Peace Prize. Unlike you I do not have blind support for such leaders – I recognise quiet clearly Arafat’s short comings. But when will you recognise that the current President of Isreal is a war mongering, blood lusting criminal vis a vis the Palestinians and Lebanese. What the hell do you call the attack on the UN compound in 1996 in Qana? How disgusting that you should have great respect for such a person.

    Until you understand that Zionism is a racist ideology you will never get that what Isreal does to the Palestinians, ie its terrorisation of this population, is driven by bigotry and racism. And this is the ideology that you subscribe to. It is no surprise, then, that you admire Peres without the slightest idea of what that means.

  92. llwynn says:

    Ha ha Rosalyn I think you *did* get trumped!

  93. Rosalyn says:

    llwynn I don’t know what you mean by me getting trumped because I can’t see how I did. I just helped to point out to Raffe that even the Nobel doesn’t get it right in their prize giving. His admiration and respect for Peres is not based on Peres being a peaceful man but rather the Peres’ brutal attacks on Palestinians and Lebanese.

  94. Belinda says:

    You most definitely did not get trumped. The Zionist agenda is so subjective, so blind in its faith, so fluid in its rhetoric, that debate with them turns into a tit for tat, with no validity. What they seem incapable of processing, is that being Pro-Palestinian does not mean being a card-carrying supporter of any Palestinian leader. The same way these graduates of Zionism reference Egpyt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc into any argument that attacks Israel, like all those nationalities and Palestinians are the same thing…right? They’re all Arabs!

    At no point did any of us applaud Arafat’s prize, but you seem to have missed the point Raffe. It’s not a competition. One capable of constructing a valid “academic” argument would perhaps have utilised their time a little more wisely and tried to prove why that imbecile Peres did in fact deserve the prize. But you chose to play “mine’s bigger than yours”. Stellar.

  95. Rosalyn says:

    Well it seems Vanunu has no respect for Peres or the Nobel institute!

    ………………………………………..

    Vanunu Writes to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee
    (http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/03/02/vanunu-writes-to-the-nobel-peace-prize-c)

    [Occupied East Jerusalem, March 1, 2009] Mordechai Vanunu wrote the Nobel Peace Prize Committee in Oslo:

    Dear Nobel Peace Prize Committee in Oslo,

    I am Vanunu Mordechai, who has been nominated several times to Nobel Peace Prize, also this year’s 2009 award.

    I am asking the committee to remove my name from the list for this year’s list of nominations.

    My main reason for this is that I cannot be part of a list of laureates that includes Simon Peres. He is the man who was behind all the Israeli atomic policy.

    Peres established and developed the atomic weapon program in Dimona in Israel. Exactly like Dr. Khan did in Pakistan, Peres was the man behind the atomic weapon proliferation to South Africa and other states. He was also, for instance, behind the nuclear weapon test in South Africa in 1978.

    Peres was the man who ordered the kidnapping of me in Italy Rome, Sept. 30, 1986, and for the secret trial and sentencing of me as a spy and traitor for 18 years in isolation in prison in Israel.

    Until now he continues to oppose my freedom and release, in spite of my serving full sentence 18 years.

    From all these reasons I don’t want be nominated and will not accept this nomination.

    I say No to any nomination as long as I am not free, that is, as long as I am still forced to be in Israel.

    WHAT I WANT IS FREEDOM AND ONLY FREEDOM.

    Thank you
    vmjc

  96. mustafa ramadan says:

    20-3-2009
    Vanunu’s Latest Whereabouts

    The last report or interview about Vanunu that I read a few months ago was that he converted to Christianity and his job was ringing the bell of one of the churches in Palestine. By so doing, he is calling for peace and warning of the repeated atrocities and other follies of a rogue state.

  97. mustafa ramadan says:

    Ayoon Wa Azan (Moderates and Liberals Refuse to Believe)
    Jihad el-Khazen Al-Hayat – 07/05/09//

    In 1956, David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, told Nahum Goldman, president of the World Jewish Congress: “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country … There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

    The above is an excerpt from a letter published by The Guardian last week in the readers’ mail and written by Geoff Simons, the author of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

    On that day, other letters were published, including one sent by militant Ghada Karmi who protested against the daily’s statement in an op-ed that “Nobody is going to get anywhere discussing 1948.” She said that the basis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not “the here and now” as mentioned in the op-ed, but rather dated back to the formation of Israel. She added saying that Mahmoud Ahmedinejad was spot on in his speech to the UN anti-racism conference, as he attributed the roots of the conflict to 1948. …

    http://www.j-khazen.blogspot.com/

    ©2003 Media Communications Group مجموعة الاتصالات الإعلامية

  98. mustafa ramadan says:

    Ayoon Wa Azan (The Arabs Did Not Take Part In The Crime)
    Jihad el-Khazen Al-Hayat – 08/05/09//

    Some Jews refuse to believe that Israel is capable of those crimes of which it is being accused. Some do so out of good will, while others are purely extremists, such as the current government of war criminals in Israel.

    Today, I shan’t tag philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy as being on this or the other side. I will rather discuss the speech he delivered in commemoration of the Holocaust in Geneva, which also hosted the United Nations anti-racism conference.

    Generally speaking, the philosopher’s job is to “philosophize,” and Lévy did a good job as he explained why the crime committed 65 years ago should still be commemorated today, overlooking Israel’s still ongoing crimes. He demanded that an anti-racism conference be held, one grouping all victims, as if talking about the Cambodians, the Tutsi or even Darfur wipes out or alleviates Israel’s Nazi crimes against Palestinians.

    This is expected. But I strongly disagree with what he said next. …

    ©2003 Media Communications Group مجموعة الاتصالات الإعلامية

  99. mustafa ramadan says:

    25 May 2009
    Fruitless Debates & Arabs Surrender
    All sorts of debates on the Israeli- Arab conflict have been going on for decades, but to no avail. All Israeli leaders have claimed seeking peace while at the same time they steal more Palestinian land, demolish their homes, build more Israeli settlements, and harass Palestinians to leave their homeland. Killing Palestinians and destroying their society and economy never ever stopped.

    Zionists don’t want peace with the Arabs. Just listen now to Netanyaho and Lieberman. The Zionists want to impose humiliating surrender on the Arabs under Zionist conditions. Period.

    This what the Zionists did with Egypt and Jordan when they could find two maniac or weak leaders. That alleged peace was between states, not between peoples or nations. It was imposed forcibly. Nobody can deny this.

    Since its creation by the hypocritical mendacious West and USA, Israel has been defying international laws and the UN resolutions and committing atrocities, but has never been disciplined or punished.

    I wonder if the new American Administration and the international community will be fair and resolved in 2009 and do something to put an end to this bloody lengthy farce.

    Mustafa

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